lol Sorry to confuse eeryone!!!!!! UGH! IMA dork I swear. I left cuz I was feeling bummed. It's silly. NM But I came back cuz I need to be around God's children. I don't get out much. I mean I don't go to church. Cuz I don't know where I belong. Which denomonation? <<<<Spelled that wrong huh? lol Where's lucieeeeeeeee? Anyway... i'm back.

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The above is a quote from Eva that can be found in the "change of heart" thread.

I'm hardly the expert, but I know a few things that might be helpful.

Eva, you and your family -or whoever will go with you- should start going to church somewhere, that's a given. Being a Christian is never a private thing. It takes discipline and dedication to make public worship a part of your life. It's a decision you have to make and then work to stick with.

But, to let you know that I know where you're comin' from...

I grew up in church. Sundays, morning and night, Thursday nights, etc. Then I moved away from home and quit going. Even when I had a real conversion I wouldn't go, I just felt so unworthy. So I hid in my apartment and read the Bible and all the Christian books I could read, listened to all the preachers and music I could listen to, and prayed and prayed and prayed. And that was okay for awhile.

But there came a point where I was desperately lonely and needed some solid Christian friends. I had good intentions with this but I worked nights, was always tired on Sunday mornings, etc. (I had a million excuses...some of them valid.) Anyway, when the loneliness began to outweigh the excuses -plus my husband who wasn't my husband then quoted the old, "as iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another" proverb on one of our long-distance romance calls, I just bit the bullet and found a church. Even though I no longer live in the same town and haven't since 1992, the close friends I made there are close friends still.

You can grow by yourself only up to a point, and then you need other people. That's life.

How to choose a church? Well, do you have any church background at all? I mean, did you grow up in a certain denomination? If you did, it's usually not a bad idea to start there.

The biggest problem most Christians make in trying to find "the right church," is exactly that, trying to find the right church. There is no one "right" church, except the Church universal. The rest boils down to a myriad of factors that will include things like personal taste and where you feel most comfortable. Theologically speaking, denominations aren't all alike, but most can be divided into two basic theological camps. A few are the mixture of the two camps. And then there's Catholicism, from whence every other organized Christian group, whether they know it or not, admit it or not, has their origins.


Maybe that will help get you started thinking. But in the meantime, just ask the Lord to help guide you to the best place for you and yours. Maybe that's a little Baptist church on the corner that you pass when you go shopping. Maybe it's something entirely different like a rollicking Church of God in Christ group. But you'll never find what you're looking for or even know what you're looking for until you actually start looking!

Good luck, and ask any questions anytime.

may i ask a question lucie? first of all i must say u have an extremely amount of knowledge in that pretty lil head of yours. so thank you. but i don't understand how baptist or evan christianity for that matter came for catholics.

I'm going to answer Meg's question first, and then jump back a little later to take care of Eva.

Meg, what I said is meant in the context of church history. People talk all the time about "how we've just got to get back to the Bible." Or try to do things the way the early Christians did them. Well, that's not as easy as it sounds.

Early -time of Christ- Christians came from several sources. Some, like Jesus, Peter, Paul, and others, were Jews. And not lapsed Jews, but good Jews. Jesus was a good Jew. He observed the holidays, feasts, traditions, etc. After his death and resurrection, the influences of Judaism didn't just get thrown out the window. Many of their customs remained in force. Now at the beginning of the book of Acts, right after Pentecost, it sounds like all the new converts are standing around, sharing their money, holding hands and singing Kum Ba Ya. (there's a Ya for Kayla) But by the end of Acts, there's structure and organization. Apostles are apostles and disciples are disciples and churches are beginning to spring up in Rome, Corinth, Philippi, Smyrna, Antioch, etc. After the disciples were all -as far as orthodox tradition teaches us- executed in one horrible way or another, who ran those churches? Bishops. People like Polycarp, a student of Saint John, Cyprian the Bishop of Antioch, Ignatius, and many others, who lived after the time of Christ but were early in that period, say, 90 A.D. to 155 A.D. (Jesus died in 33 A.D., if I'm not mistaken, Paul died somewhere between 50-60 A.D., if you're getting the drift.)

If you go to a Catholic church tomorrow and sit in on a mass, you can be certain that the mass you're witnessing, is in its most basic structure, (greeting, prayer, hymn, readings of Old Testament, Epistle, Gospel, responsive reading of a psalm, group confession of sins, etc.) the same mass that's been celebrated since around 149 A.D. The early Christians, those who were students of the Apostles and other disciples, were organized into what we now know as Catholicism, by the 100s. The writings of Ignatius, "an early church father" were from this time period and he describes the mass. From 100 and something A.D. to 1517, if you were a Christian, you were a Catholic. There wasn't anything else. There were no Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Holiness, Non-Denominational Bible cults or Episcopalians or Willow Creek folks. This was how Christianity was expressed during that time.

1517 changed all that. The Catholic church had some glaring problems and corruptions, namely the sale of indulgences. (get your great Aunt Susie out of purgatory by buying a piece of paper called an indulgence.) One Catholic priest, Martin Luther, decided to take on the pope and Catholicism in general and was of course, excommunicated as a priest, but he kicked off the Reformation and the Lutherans were born. Over in England, around the same time, King Henry the VIII wanted a divorce real bad and the pope wouldn't grant it so he took English Catholics and made himself the "pope" so to speak of that group and renamed the church the Church of England, still in existence today. It was in the beginning, just the Catholics with the king in charge instead of a pope. You are a Baptist. This is where your roots begin.

Baptists started because when the Church of England split from the Roman Catholic church, they wanted to shake off the Catholic traditions as well. Out of this ruckus was born the Book of Common Prayer and the Articles of Religion which defined specifically what the COE now believed. Like Luther, they didn't throw all of Catholicism out the door. They simnply deleted certain aspects and added a new thing here and there. Baptists especially, wanted a complete break with tradition and no one -like a pope or a king- in charge of them so they split from the Church of England and divided into two camps (General and Separatists.) A lot of them came to America and were part of the Puritan movement along with the Congregational Christians that settled in New England. And where did the Congregational Christians come from? The COE. And what is the COE? A reformed version of the Catholic church with a king or queen in charge instead of a pope. (some would say there's not much difference!)

Meanwhile, in Switzerland, a few years after Martin Luther had his big run-in with the Catholic Church, John Calvin was trying to improve on Luther's ideas and the Presbyterians were born. There are two strains really, the Presbyterians out of Scotland and the Calvin's group. They came to America too, and divided several times as did the Baptists.

By the 1700s, John Wesley came into the picture inside the Church of England and became a priest himself, but he wanted to start a group, a small group ministry that would help develop "methods" of more holy living. Thus, the Methodists" were born. They weren't meant to become a full-blown church, in fact Wesley himself, a great practical theologian said, "I live and die a member of the Church of England. The day the Methodists seperate from the COE, God will separate from the Methodists."

But Wesley didn't really get his way because before too long he was kicked out of the pulpits of the COE for talking too much about grace and the work of the Holy Spirit. When his preachers came to America, Wesley's message of grace and the work of the holy spirit emphasis caught fire (which is why they have the cross and the flame as their official symbol) and another group was born, the charismatic/pentecostal branch of Christianity. In addition, the African Methodist Episcopal church came out of this same Methodist/American group. They ordained their first woman in the early 1800s.

Groups like Jehovah's Witness, Seven Day Adventists and Mormons are relatively late-comers in the game as they began organizing in the 1800s and early 1900s.

Muslims, born from the revelations of Mohammed, came onto the scene around 500 A.D. if I'm not mistaken and I might be. (they'd say it was earlier since they trace their roots to Abraham's son, Ishmael)

I realize this is long and boring, but can you see in terms of history what I meant? The Catholic Church is indisputably the oldest and largest group of Christians in the entire world. Their members range in the 1.2 billion range. One way or another, 2nd, 3rd, 12th cousins 40 times removed, most of us in the modern Protestant churches have some roots in Catholicism. The Apostle's Creed? The Nicene Creed? Most of us say those things every once in awhile and some say them every Sunday. Where did they come from? Catholics. Who preserved the records? Catholics. Ever put "the serenity prayer" on your wall? You know, "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change..." Who wrote it? Saint Francis of Assisi. A Catholic. No matter what some may think about what Catholics believe and why, they are owed a debt of gratitude because they kept Christ's church going for 1500 years before the big split.

And thus ends a brief and incomplete family tree of Christianity for this evening...

All of this is kind of like playing the Kevin Bacon game. (you know, name an actor and you can associate another actor with another actor that worked with Kevin Bacon.) Somewhere at the end of your roots, is a Catholic.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Lucie Manette,

Eva, I'm not sure I can improve on anything you said except to encourage you to simply relax and accept yourself and your history. God will lead you and put you where He wants you to be if you let Him do his thing.

I've had this experience as have many others, where you grow up in one situation, become a Christian and then completely despise the church of your youth. I mean afterall, if they'd been "doing it right," you'd have gotten your spiritual act together long before you did, correct?

This is false. Time and maturity tend to show each of us that while where we came from in terms of churches and denominations, may not be perfect, God's grace was working in your life through those imperfect situations whether you knew it or not. For a long time I was very critical of Methodists, having grown up in the Methodist church, and I searched and searched for "the right church," the group of people who had the most correct doctrine according to the Bible. And you know what? I discovered Solomon's words in Ecclesiastes to be quite true: "With much knowledge comes much vexation."

(that's "frustration" for you, Kiersten! *Kiersten walks off muttering how "vexed" she has become by Lucie Manette!")

A wise friend of mine once cleverly said, "Eat the meat and spit out the bones." No matter what church you came from, there was some meat in there somewhere, most likely, even if it was only teeny-tiny. So eat the meat, and then spit out the bones. Accept the history you have, and keep moving forward with your future that will become a part of the history you already have.

The biggest thing for you though, is finding yourself a church you feel good in and can comfortably grow to be a part of. That's #1. And no one here, I promise, will judge anything about where you've been. Everyone here is representing a different "denomination," but we all have one thing in common, regardless of how we express it on Sunday mornings, and that one thing is the love and saving grace of Christ through his perfect sacrifice in death and resurrection. So your experiences will fit right in.

Well alrighty then. I read the book. It made for good reading as well, do I have a comment? Yes. Am I gonna post it now? No.

But as Arnold says "I'll Be Back"

Loved the book Lucie...very imformative...I learned all that in school, but it was a good refresher... Good old Luther, great guy.

Yes, Luther was an interesting fella. A little on the coarse side at times. He would've fit right in at chaplain school.

On the other hand, he had some problems towards the end of his life that resulted in some rather awful writing about Jews. Unfortunately those writings fell into the hands of Adolf Hitler. Not good.

But it seems all the great saints of the church have some stain somewhere. Luther's was his anti-semitism towards the end of his life. Calvin's was the issue he had with Michael Servetus. John Wesley had a hellish marriage, so hellish in fact that when his wife died, he didn't even know it, read it in the paper.(they'd been separated for several years.)

I always enjoy needling Presbyterians over Calvin's "issues" with Michael Servetus. It's childish, I know. That's my passive-aggressive side poking through.

Calvin called Servetus "that so-called physician." Gee whiz. Servetus may have been a pest and a jerk but the guy discovered the circulatory system. Of course, I rather think Calvin was a bit of a jerk but in a different way. I think the word I'm searching for begins with an "a" and ends with the word, "retentive."

wow lucie i just read 'the book'. it was very informative. it makes sense though although i have one question: i thought jesus taught christianity. if he did then y didn't they just call it christianity instead of catholics? i'm a tad bit confused. sorry for all the trouble

It's no trouble, Meg.

Do you say The Apostles Creed on Sunday mornings? If you're not familiar with it, I've pasted it below. It's certainly used in the Roman Catholic Church and most Protestant churches use it, if not weekly like Methodists and Presbyterians, at least occasionally, and it's a statement of beliefs. The "doctrines" found within it can be traced to the apostolic period which is where it gets its name and why it's so widely used and respected because it is so very old. A seminary professor once said, "I can worship with anybody that believes in the Apostles Creed." I thought that was a great measuring stick and I believe the same thing. Anyway, here's the creed.

I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.

And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit; the holy catholic Church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. AMEN.

I should also mention that Methodists typically delete "descended into hell" while Presbyterians leave it in.

Now, did you notice the word, "catholic" in there? It comes from a Greek word, "katholikos" which means, "regarding the whole, universal." If you say the creed, and believe in the "holy catholic church," you mean you believe in the universal church...the church that goes beyond denominations and beliefs, but the church that Christ creates.

That's "catholic" with a little "c." Catholic with a big C, means Roman Catholic.

Yes, Jesus taught Christianity, and there's no distincition or dispute there, unless you believe Catholics aren't Christians. I believe this to be entirely false. Some of the greatest Christians to ever walk the earth, were and are Catholic. So no one will get very far with me by trying to convince me Mother Theresa wasn't a Christian or Pope John Paul II wasn't either, for that matter.

"Catholic" was the word Saint Ignatius used in 110 A.D. to describe Christians in the early forming churches. It meant "whole" in that context as well as "orthodox." Orthodox means "conforming to certain, established beliefs." The beliefs in 110 A.D. were the same as what's in the Apostle's Creed (just to simplify it a little) so Ignatius was using the term to refer to not only what Christians believed, but also the universality of it. As the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Western Orthodox church had their issues in 1054 A.D., the Eastern Orthodox folks kept "Orthodox" to describe themselves while the Western folks kept "Catholic" specifically, Roman Catholic because they were based in Rome. However, their basic beliefs at the core, are the same and they have the same origin.

In short, it means both "whole" and "orthodox."

Hope this helps a little.

Oh, and one other thing. A couple of Christian singers are Roman Catholic.

I believe Rachel Lampa is RC. And I think I read that Rich Mullins was in the process of converting (you know, the "Awesome God" guy?) and about to be confirmed, right before he was killed in an automobile accident.

thanks lucie. it helps a little bit. to tell u the truth i've never even read the apostles' creed until u posted it so in answer to your question we don't read it at our church.

I think Rachael is Roman Catholic too...I think I heard that somewhere...but wait, that makes no sense to me.. I'm pretty sure she doesn't go to a RC church. Hm.

what's so different bout the church services??

If Rachael Lampa is a Catholic, I'm pretty sure she DOES go to mass. If she's left the RC, it's news. I have heard though, she's a "charismatic Catholic." There is a great deal of diversity in Catholicism which is wonderful and allows for much expression, but some things remain firmly in place if you consider yourself a "practicing Catholic" and attending mass is a requirement, not a request.

Try not to operate under the idea of one right set of beliefs. What I mean is, a die-hard Calivinist believes they are absolutely right in their interpretation of Scripture. A Baptist will disagree with the Calvinist and they'll holler back and forth on chapter and verse and why the other has interpreted the text and the historical context incorrectly. There's no one book that will give anyone the absolute right answer. If you pick up an NIV, a NKJV a NASB they're all Bibles and yet even they don't agree on stuff as nit-picky as where to put commas and how to interpret certain words.

At some point, we all have to get beyond that and do the best we can. There's plenty of room in the "family of God," for diversity in spiritual expression. Just because what I believe isn't what an Independent Baptist from Pensacola, Florida believes doesn't mean I believe their beliefs are invalid. Do you see what I mean? And as far as Catholics go, our newest Supreme Court nominees Judge Roberts and soon-to-be-confirmed Judge Alito are both practicing Catholics which is generally considered excellent in terms of the pro-life issue and the support they'll give it because of their religious beliefs.

Let your minds grow a little. This is religious pluralism at its best. Most groups do something well. Focus on that and not on the differences that divide you.

Religious pluralism at its worst is being a chaplain in the Army and being required by the government to accomodate a professing Satanist soldier-which is really just silly since most folks that push that issue aren't even really Satanists but just trying to get attention or tick someone off- to "worship" like everyone else. This hardly ever happens but when it does, it's annoying.

you have some awesome thoughts lucie

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Word Music messageboards.wordlabelgroup.com Nicole C. Mullen The Denomination Desk is Open

I am missionary baptist and I think the most important thing when you are choosing a church is to make sure they are a true bible believing and preaching church. The bible is our rule book and just because the times have changed the rules haven't and I think it is important to have a preacher who isn't affraid to preach God's word no matter who it might offend.